practices at Mass are not at all healthy. I say this not to impugn anyone for I truly think well-meaning people just haven't been properly catechized. I speak of hand-holding during Mass and laity praying in the "orans" position. Only through my own study and conversations with other Catholics did I realize that I must cease these practices.
Today's Vortex gives some indications of a parish that may well be infested with "spirit of Vatican II" mentalities. Please note that there is a world of difference between the actual proceeds of Vatican II versus this "spirit of Vatican II". Note how many symptoms of that vile spirit are in your own. I don't think Voris's list is exhaustive, either.
The 'spirit' of Vatican ll has so deformed and protestantized our beautiful Liturgy that by now it is not even recognizable. I can so relate to the last part of this mic d up segment when they were talking about how FAST all of these changes came about. Overnight there were no more bells at the Consecration, Communion rails were literally 'ripped out' and we were marching up to receive our Precious Lord like cattle. Oh and the Priest was facing US!! It was no longer about Jesus, it was about US! I remember my mother and her friends from our Parish Parent Teacher Assoc. being absolutely APPALLED and BEWILDERED at how they had slaughtered the Mass.........OVERNIGHT! Our parish Priest's only explanation: "The Church is finally coming in to the 20th Century"!!!! They molested the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! It was the ultimate SIN, and I can only think that they crucified Our Precious Lord all over again! It was no longer all about Him, it was about US Soon to follow, it was Communion 'in the hand', altar girls, and guitar Masses. And this wasn't even called for in the documents of Vatican ll. How in the world did Pope Saint John Paul ll allow this to take continue?. Lord Have Mercy On Us!
curious thing about the "orans position" the oldest representation of a person praying in the orans position is a second century fresco in the Roman catacombs. The unusual factor of the fresco is that it is a woman praying with her hands lifted up. This means either that the laity so prayed with raised hands in the sub-Apostolic Church or that if the position were limited to the priests, there must have been women priests. I prefer the first interpretation but in that case there is no reason that the laity should not assume this position during their prayers
Be that as it very well may, that is no justification for the continuance of the practice. Assuming that fresco is authentic, it is reasonable to surmise that church leaders at the time understood the potential problem with that practice and accordingly put the kibosh on it.
of course the fresco is authentic do you think the Italian belle arte just make up national treasures??? And there is no record anywhere in the various liturgical books or directives of the first six centuries where "church leaders" "put the kibosh" on the practice. It simply died out in the Latin Rites though it survived in a number of Rites that spring from the East Syrian Tradition such as the Malabar Rite. If your are going to pontificate about the liturgy you need to do your homework and know your history
Cool your jets, friend. My point is that the existence of this fresco does not justify the orans position of the laity, and you know that. Nice distraction technique, though - to no avail. And why should I believe "it simply died out"? Consolamini, I see you are returning to belligerence toward me. That's not happening on this blog. Until you humbly and unequivocally apologize for your attitude, this will be the last comment of yours published here.
While I wholeheartedly agree with the things mentioned (please, no orans position or holding hands during the Our Father!) -- we must also be careful not to be too dour at Holy Mass. The graphic posted above implies that we shouldn't smile or be joyful or welcoming in any way because the Mass is a sad, gruesome sacrifice. However, we as Catholics know that the sacrifice is intimately connected with the resurrection, which is indeed a joyful event! Isn't it true that we sing Alleluia? Don't many readings speak to us about the joy of God saving His people? And after all, don't we call the priest the "celebrant"? (He's not a "presider," by the way.) So we are all "celebrating" and there's nothing wrong with an appropriate joy. I agree that this doesn't translate into glad-handing and yukking it up, but I just felt a need to caution about the sourpuss extreme that some might read into things.
Please be respectful and courteous to others on this blog. We reserve the right to delete comments that violate courtesy and/or those that promote dissent from the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.
The 'spirit' of Vatican ll has so deformed and protestantized our beautiful Liturgy that by now it is not even recognizable. I can so relate to the last part of this mic d up segment when they were talking about how FAST all of these changes came about. Overnight there were no more bells at the Consecration, Communion rails were literally 'ripped out' and we were marching up to receive our Precious Lord like cattle. Oh and the Priest was facing US!! It was no longer about Jesus, it was about US! I remember my mother and her friends from our Parish Parent Teacher Assoc. being absolutely APPALLED and BEWILDERED at how they had slaughtered the Mass.........OVERNIGHT! Our parish Priest's only explanation: "The Church is finally coming in to the 20th Century"!!!! They molested the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! It was the ultimate SIN, and I can only think that they crucified Our Precious Lord all over again! It was no longer all about Him, it was about US Soon to follow, it was Communion 'in the hand', altar girls, and guitar Masses. And this wasn't even called for in the documents of Vatican ll. How in the world did Pope Saint John Paul ll allow this to take continue?. Lord Have Mercy On Us!
ReplyDeletecurious thing about the "orans position" the oldest representation of a person praying in the orans position is a second century fresco in the Roman catacombs. The unusual factor of the fresco is that it is a woman praying with her hands lifted up. This means either that the laity so prayed with raised hands in the sub-Apostolic Church or that if the position were limited to the priests, there must have been women priests. I prefer the first interpretation but in that case there is no reason that the laity should not assume this position during their prayers
ReplyDeleteBe that as it very well may, that is no justification for the continuance of the practice. Assuming that fresco is authentic, it is reasonable to surmise that church leaders at the time understood the potential problem with that practice and accordingly put the kibosh on it.
Deleteof course the fresco is authentic do you think the Italian belle arte just make up national treasures??? And there is no record anywhere in the various liturgical books or directives of the first six centuries where "church leaders" "put the kibosh" on the practice. It simply died out in the Latin Rites though it survived in a number of Rites that spring from the East Syrian Tradition such as the Malabar Rite. If your are going to pontificate about the liturgy you need to do your homework and know your history
ReplyDeleteCool your jets, friend. My point is that the existence of this fresco does not justify the orans position of the laity, and you know that. Nice distraction technique, though - to no avail. And why should I believe "it simply died out"?
DeleteConsolamini, I see you are returning to belligerence toward me. That's not happening on this blog. Until you humbly and unequivocally apologize for your attitude, this will be the last comment of yours published here.
While I wholeheartedly agree with the things mentioned (please, no orans position or holding hands during the Our Father!) -- we must also be careful not to be too dour at Holy Mass. The graphic posted above implies that we shouldn't smile or be joyful or welcoming in any way because the Mass is a sad, gruesome sacrifice. However, we as Catholics know that the sacrifice is intimately connected with the resurrection, which is indeed a joyful event!
ReplyDeleteIsn't it true that we sing Alleluia? Don't many readings speak to us about the joy of God saving His people? And after all, don't we call the priest the "celebrant"? (He's not a "presider," by the way.)
So we are all "celebrating" and there's nothing wrong with an appropriate joy. I agree that this doesn't translate into glad-handing and yukking it up, but I just felt a need to caution about the sourpuss extreme that some might read into things.